tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN November 26, 2014 4:00am-6:01am EST
issues that i want to talk about. you described the effort at northwestern as a means to an end. i think it's also fire describe it as a cry for help. i think that we talk about having the student athletes interest at the center of what we do. and i used to run a college. it was a division 2 school. there's really nobody talking for the students. i think that's happening at northwestern is this san effort to get somebody to listen. i want to address this to judge starr and to 3mr. muir. you both represent -- you both are members of very large conferences, and i want to just go over what the players at northwestern are asking for. they are asking for efforts to minimize college athletes' brain
trauma risks. they are asking to prevent players from being stuck paying sports related medical expenses. they are asking that graduation rates increase. they are asking that educational opportunities for student athletes in good standing be protected. they are asking that universities be prohibited from using a permanent injury suffered during athletics as a reason to reduce or eliminate a scholarship. they are asking to establish and enforce uniform safety guidelines in all sports to help prevent serious injuries and avoidable deaths, and they are asking to prohibit the punishment of college athletes that have not xhited a crime. is in any one on that list that's unreasonable? is there any piece of that that your institution would say, no, i'm awfully sorry, we can't do that. or let me phrase it positively. would you each be willing to lead an effort in your respective conferences to see to it that your fellow member institutions say, absolutely, guys.
you are absolutely right. we're going to do it. it's the right thing to do? >> mr. bishop, i think that that series of questions, they are in fact, important. they are legitimate, and we are, in fact, continually working toward addressing them. take the concussion policy. the ncaa has a concussion policy and requires members to, of our conference requires it and we have a concussion policy. we continually monitor that. there are studies under way from the university of virginia. and the ncaa has personally -- has directly funded a study that's -- so this is evolving science. yes, we want to -- >> here's my question. i'm sorry, i don't mean to be rude but i only have five minutes. should we not -- if uniization is as bad as so many of you think it is should we not use this as a catalyst, not just talk about conversations and not just talk about, yes, we're
looking at it and studying. let's do it. you are very powerful institutions in very powerful conferences that people look to for leadership. can you not just say, we're going to lead an effort to make this happen? >> briefly, i believe it is happening. can we move more quickly? of course. you can always move more quickly. but it is in fact, a serious conversation. these issues are under serious review and it's not just a conversation. things are -- the ncaa, the cost of attendance for the -- >> my question is, in these conversations, who is speaking for the student athlete? >> i would say there's a multiple of individuals speaking for the student athletes, including the student athletes themselves. we hear a number of our constituencies, both on and off campus both saying we need the student athletes' voice. certainly we're being attentive to that. our presidents are at the table. they are constantly thinking
about this. they are trying to take leadership roles. athletic directors. i was at a meeting yesterday. again, this is a prominent discussion point because we want to make sure the student athletes' experience is the best it can possibly be. we need to enhance it. >> i hope we can somehow collectively get to the point where we hold student athletes -- hold coaches to the same standards. a coach can break a contract with impugn irt. when you left yale you had to sit out a year. i don't understand why it is a coach can break a contract with impunity and a student athlete is penalized if he wants to move from one institution to another institution that he thinks better serves his needs. mr. eilers, you want to comment? >> i think i said it in my testimony, but i do think if you are -- and i don't understand why we can't get there. people should go to college to get degrees first and foremost.
part of their educational experience was participating in a sports related program like someone would do drama, speech, debate, what have you. it'sed me me who i am today. it's made me a better father, a better husband, better person and better businessperson. i would disagree with mr. schwarz characterization that separate and distinct from your educational experience. i think it's integral. and what we need to do is make sure student athletes have the ability to go to an institution for four years and learn a degree and leave with a degree. i would respectfully disagree that there should be some quid pro quo. that person should make a commitment to that coach to give them four years of service coming out of high school. if we don't do that, though, then i would submit what you are suggesting. we should allow people to then flow around. it should be equal. i want a two-way street to be equal for both parties.
>> gentleman's time has expired. dr. roe? >> just to clarify a coup 7le o things. full disclosure. the head basketball coach and athletic director where i went to college, dave loose, did both jobs for a long time. this is a middivision i school. i'm absolutely committed to athletics. i donated money to help build the athlet strick at the college. you pointed out about how much money the ncaa is but most don't live at that lofty level. i just pulled up, most colleges lose money in athletics. a few of the big areas do. big schools do. at austin p., it's a $9 million budget a year. not a $90 million budget. and most schools at that level are struggling. i realize this is unionization at a private university not a state university.
but i agree, mr. bishop, you can transfer now, without loss of a time if you transfer at a different level. if you go up in division -- >> just to clarify that for everyone. either mr. livingston or -- maybe judge starr, i think this ruling, what concerns me is -- at least when i played sports it was fun. you made it sound like some sort of drudgery. golf is sometimes, but for the most part, sports are fun. mr. eilers added his experience as a student athlete and it made him a better -- he mentioned it very eloquently. it did for me. it taught me, i learned a lot on the playing field i would never have learned in the classroom. do you think this ruling could potentially cause schools just to drop football or sports? >> we have to consider all options in terms of the best
interest of the university. i know that the president of the university of delaware has said that he was a student athlete himself that the university of delaware would not be able to continue. it's a public university. so it really is raising a host of serious questions. i think it could, in fact, at a minimum cause programatic curtailments. it raises the issue we talked about rnd title nine. how do you achieve the title nine very important balance to achieve as a matter of policy and as a matter of law. it is simply the wrong way to go to address these very important issues. the number of questions that are raised are so myriad. they are just remarkably wide ranging. and i don't think there's a real answer for most of these questions. the fair labor standards act is yet another. the antitrust laws themselves that were emphasized earlier. it's bringing us into a sea of
complete uncertainty. >> i agree. excuse me. go ahead. >> if i might add, the issue that mr. schwarz talked about in terms of the protection for entire leagues, where they all belong under one collective bargaining agreement, is absolutely correct for professional sports. that does not exist in college sports. the nlrb only would govern 17 out of the approximately 120 schools that play football. and so you end up with a potential arms race for those who can afford it and others, as judge starr said, may decide to make a decision to get rid of it. sports are competitive. the teams that want to win are going to pay their way up to win. >> i think if northwestern unionizes, they'll play 12 homecoming games is what i think they're going to do. in the event they can't agree on terms and conditions is it possible student athletes will strike? >> it's traditional tool and
collective bargaining. and that itself raises not only justice the idea seems to be unthinkable, but the football team goes on strike. then what about the nonscholarship athletes? again, that's the incoherence of the collective bargaining agreement. does that mean they also walk out on class? if they are employees, then what is their relationship to the academic enterprise? >> mr. eilers, i think you said it. when i was in college, students were true student athletes. our quarterback had a 4.0 as a math major. there are many who use athletics to enhance -- you were obviously an incredible athlete because you played professional football. you for you got into the professional leagues. i think your comments were spot on. that's the way we should look at it. a student athlete. some students play in the band. some -- and they practice for hours some go to rotc. they work very hard and drama
and other things. and so i'll give you the final say on this. >> the gentleman's time has expired. brilliant timing. mr. courtney. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think listening to the testimony, most people, i think, would agree that what happened at northwestern was because the ncaa has created a vacuum in terms of students being treated fairly. if you look at the mission statement of the college athlights players association, one of the mission statement items is to provide better due process and sanction actions. i represent the university of connecticut. we had a pretty exciting spring. shabazz napier made two incredible, i think, courageous comments dearing the course of the lead-up to the tournament, describing in a way that may be embarrassing to some that sometimes he went to bed hungry at night because of the nickel and dime mickey mouse ncaa rules
in terms of defining what universities can provide to students. was kind of almost comical to see him rush to announce a new rule on april 15th that now has changed and reformed that. not because of what mr. napier said, but, you know, for a lot of us, it seems tat times the only thing that changes is external pressure. that's what this event at northwestern has produced. we wouldn't be having this hearing to talk about the plight of students but for the actions of those students. frankly, there are other times the sanctions process is par more pernicious than missing a midnight snack. we look at what mr. napier said about the fact this is what happens when you ban us. the due process, and i use that term loosely, that the ncaa engages in, unfortunately far too many times shoots the bystander in an effort to
comport with some measure of student athletes. that school was banned because of a cohort of students who had poor academic performance and no one is going to dispute that. in 2007, not one player on that team was around at the university when those scores triggered an apr finding that with a four-year lookback period, yet they found themselves in a situation they were banned from postseason play because of a rule that makes no sense. by the way, other schools are doing the one and done system which, you know, try and explain that to the average person why that's okay, and yet a student like shabazz napier is punished. he's going to graduate in a couple of weeks, getting his full degree. he's getting punished for something that somebody he never knew -- i'm very skeptical, frankly, of the protections for students who
get swept up in this bizarre byzantine system of trying to comport with some definition of student athletes. with all due respect to the witnesses, i don't think the colleges and universities because they have their own pressures of not rocking the boat to provide real honest to god advocacy for students giting swept up. perry joenss iii was disqualified at baylor because his mother took three small loans when he was a high school sophomore before he even went to baylor. yet he was punished later on in his college career because his mother was in desperate financial situation and took a short-term loan from a coach. i'm sure no one wants to vouch for that, but nonetheless, why would he get punished for that except for the ncaa's desperate attempt to somehow comport with a definition of student athlete. mr. schwarz, i guess when we talk about, you know, treating people with dignity because
that's really what's so offensive about the way the ncaa violated patient rights in that miami investigation. the power that they can xhert, again, tramples on people's ability to have basic due process rights. and i wonder if you can put your comments in that context. >> it's a great step the ncaa has started saying if a student wants to give an athlete a meal, they are allowed to. the individual choice to feed an athlete was prohibited beyond a certain number of meals. and that's the level of cartel control we see here. and you are exactly right the issue is not whether a benevolent organization will dane to provide the people who bring value with some crumbs. it's a voice. it's advocacy. i don't know how often james brown is quoted in here. he's saying i don't want nobody to give me nothing. open up the door, i'll get it
myself. and that's effectively what the movement here is about. it's about saying give us some avenue. let us come in. it's an ncaa violation to come in and ask for money right now, as an example. you get permanently banned. >> the gentleman's time has expired. i want to commend him. the gentleman from connecticut, for getting some bragging without mentioning the basketball word. >> certainly appreciate all of you being here today. i wanted to go to mr. livingston first and ask a few questions. mr. livingston, the nlrb regional director's decision in northwestern applies solely to private universities because state universities as state government, because state universities as state government entities are exclude from nlra coverage. that applies tonal a portion of
universities in each conference and division. however, state law applies to state public colleges. >> there are a variety of differences. the states vary widely. the nlra covers organizing rules, bargaining unit determinations, subjects of bargaining and the right to engage in economic action. all those differ under various state laws. for example, some prohibit public sector bargaining entirely. others prohibit public sector bargaining an limited terms. others don't have the right to engage in economic action. others would have interest arbitration. so you'd have different subjects being negotiated by different groups in different collective bargaining agreements. ultimately would end up with individual bargaining and unlevel playing field. different terms and different contracts. then when those teams compete,
unlike in professional sports, you've got something that i simply don't think is workable. >> okay, i think that's an important point that if that scholarship athletes do organize, the union universities will bargain over terms and conditions of employment. and that parties are compelled to bargain over mandatory subjects of bargaining. what terms and conditions of employment are mandatory subjects of bargaining? >> i appreciate the comments we've heard about the need for college athletics to improve and to improve the student athlete. whether it's college athletes, players association or any other union. any other union has a right to organize. they could bargain about a wide variety -- that's so broad that it would cover compensation, signing bonuses, retention bonuses,
hours of work. so in terms of schedules, potentially even class attendance, that while campus goals may be limited right now if they are certified at some organization based on member desires, maybe they become greater. any other union wouldn't be limited to the goals we heard today. >> in the event student athliets unionize, they'll play dues. where do these dues come from. >> how they decide to do it is up to them. but rpd section 302 of though labor management relations act it's clear that an employer, in this case, the university, can't pay it. unless we're talking about wages in some form, the unions would have to answer that. >> we touched briefly earlier on
taxation. these universities and organizations are tax exempt if a student becomes an employer, are they then subject to taxation and does that affect pell grants, ability to get student loans? where do we -- how do we go don that road? >> those are beyond my area of expertise, but i do believe that others perhaps can answer that question. >> does somebody else have a comment on that? >> section 61 of the internal revenue code has a definition of what is income. if an individual is an employee, then very strong arguments. it's unsettled, but it's going to open up serious questions about the entire range of services, including the scholarship itself. there are issues presently with how respect to how a scholarship is treated. if they are employees, then it's compensation and presumptively
taxable. >> if they are employees and you presume that they'd have to pay taxes on it, i would presume that the goals of any scholarship goeshlnegotiations, negotiations to take that into account. >> the gentleman yields back. ms. fudge. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you all for being here today. i want to make a couple of comments. want to go back to something my colleague mr. courtney said. i happen to have attended ohio state university. i knew a lot of the football players when i was in school. this issue was a problem then. it is an issue today. so why has it not been taken care of in more than 30 years? there is no reason for it. and but for the courageous actions of these young men, we wouldn't be talking about it today. and then for you, mr. livingston, the ohio state house who has determined that our athletes are not employees, just because they said it, doesn't
make it so. these are the same people that want to restrict voting rights. just because they said it doesn't make it so. as well we do know that student athletes, that scholarship athletes are treated differently than those not on scholarship. we know it and just need to admit it. the restrictions they have and the time commitment is much different than students who are nonscholarship students. first question, i'd really like to ask mr. schwarz, in your written testimony you mention the level of property the ncaa is making off student athletes. do you know if any of that profit is dedicated in any way to providing health benefits to those students? >> some of it is. most on field injuries, the immediate cost of that injury is covered. it's not required, but it is covered. long-term injuries that linger typically are less likely to be
covered. so it's not always the case. >> could i add one quick thing. you mentioned that since you were in college there's been a problem about the cost of attendance stipends. the ncaa voted them away in 1973. they've been claiming they've been talking about bringing them back since 1973. in 1986 something was tried. in 2006, something was tried. now they are telling you it's coming real soon. there's been a long history of it's coming real soon. >> thank you. the ncaa also doesn't want these young people to be able to make a living, the little bit that they can. i was around when the whole scandal at ohio state happened about some kids selling their own shirts. the shirts that they take off their back, they can't sell. i won't go into that one. but i would like to ask mr. star and mr. muir, what do your football and basketball coaches make annually? >> i don't have the number off the top of my head. it is substantial. it is a free market.
we want to keep our coaches. we've had stability. i can get those for you. >> would you, please? >> i'm not at liberty to share the numbers. >> is it a secret? >> it's just something we don't share at stanford. but the same token -- >> that's the only thing i wanted to ask you. >> coach art briles made $2.4 million, scott drew made $2.1 million and the women's basketball coach made $1.3 million. at stanford, the number isn't published but in the one year jim harbaugh's salary rose above, sergeantions who are the top five employees, he made a little over $1 million. >> mr. starr, you mentioned earlier that, obviously, the goal of attending a college or university is to obtain a degree. do you also realize for division i football athletes and men's basketball players the graduation rates across the board hover around 50%?
>> at baylor it's higher. at baylor it's 62% for men's basketball team but i could not agree more, ms. fudge. we need to create, especially in men's basketball, but to a considerable degree in football as well, this culture of student athlete. and it begins with the coaches, the head coach. but the entire infrastructure has to be oriented toward that. at the same time, these are young men and young women making their own choices. they decide what's important for them. all we can do is create a culture that -- of encouragement and of genuine support. >> thank you very much. i see my time is -- i'll yield it back, mr. chairman. thank you all. >> thank you very much. i'll be brief. brief. anyone can answer this question. do athletic scholarships give potential academic opportunities
to students who otherwise not -- would not have them available to them because of surely based on their ability to play a sport? mr. muir? >> i would say that the opportunity to attend the institution like stanford and compete at the highest level and get a quality education, we had less than 5% be admitted this past year. 40,000 applications. and so when our coaches present young people with an opportunity to come and compete at stanford, it's a wonderful experience. i think our kids understand and cherish that opportunity. as i said with the high graduation rate, they understand they are part of the fabric of the place. >> there's a very significant opportunity for first generation college attendees. so it is a door opener. it has been historically. i believe the ncaa said approximately 15% of student athletes who receive scholarships are first generation. no one has attended college in
their family. it's a great part of the american story. >> thank you. i just have a brief comment. i think we all here today, people testifying and members on both sides know that there are substantial issues we're discussing today and i'm hopeful this discussion will continue and make things better for and improvements to our college athletic system so that young people across the country can continue to compete, but also as many of you have outlined, more importantly, have access to an educational experience that helps them in their future careers and down the line. with that, i yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. >> this is a very interesting hearing, and i appreciate your expertise, all of the witnesses who are here today. mr. eilers, you talked about how the debate should be about
what's the best way to address the goal. and i really appreciate that. i know that some of my colleagues have mentioned the importance of addressing the goals that the college athletes have set out. i was reading an editorial that came out that said the college sports establishment has brought this trouble on itself by not moving to address players' legitimate grievances. obviously the regional director found some differences between what northwestern is doing and what you have described in your experience and mr. muir and judge starr. i wanted to ask just a quick question. i know mr. eilers, you van mba from kellogg school but you report here representing northwestern. mr. livingston, do you happen to represent northwestern? >> i do not. >> i was just curious about that. we've heard different experiences here and different facts about your colleges, like mr. muir, what stanford is
doing. but what we're talking about is a decision that's specific to northwestern, and one of the things that the regional director found was that the scholarship players are identified and recruited in the first instance because of their football prowess and not because of their academic achievement in high school. is that similar? mr. muir, you're shaking your head. is that different from your experience at stanford? >> that is definitely different. when i think about what our coaches are doing in identifying young people to potentially come to stanford, as i said earlier, the first process they have to go through is making sure they can pass admissions and make sure that they can enter school just look the general student. so we are weeding out individuals because if they don't have the academic record, doesn't matter what their athletic accomplishments are. if they aren't able to in order to meet the needs of ensuring that they'll get an education.
that's not going to happen. >> i was trying to figure out from reading part of the regional director's opinion. what happens if a class that a player, a scholarship player wants to take because of his major or i should say his or her major because maybe this could be expanded to women's sports as well. what happens if that class conflicts with practice? what does the college do? >> when i attended practice when i see our student athletes practice, getting ready for competition. there's many times i'll see football student athletes, specifically, walk off the field because they are attending a lab or a class. and that comes first. >> and they aren't penalized for that? they are permitted -- >> those are kids who will play on saturday as well. >> was that your experience as well? >> yeah, it was. there are sacrifices made. i took organic chemistry one summer between my sophomore and junior year because of that fact. and trying to take the labs.
i would only submit one additional item which is i think what stanford has done is incredible in football and what they do on the academic front, accomplishing both. there was a brief moment in time before we ran into unfortunate game against alabama in the national championship, i was most proud of notre dame having the highest graduation rate for the football players as well as briefly being ranked number one in the country. so you can do both. >> the regional director, i believe, found that northwestern has 97% graduation rate for its players. which seems to be pretty high. i wanted to ask also about, what happens during the recruitment process because i mentioned what the finding was about northwestern, that they were recruited because of their football prowess. what happens during that recruitment process? how are the prospect ive athlets made aware of all of the
students available to them? how do they decide during that consideration process? who informs them about and whether they will lose their scholarship if they don't stay on the team? mr. muir? maybe judge starr you can respond to that as well. >> want to go first? >> in terms of the recruitment process, i have personally seen what that process looks like. and it includes a very thorough introduction to here's the academic support. they will meet people from the academic support staff. they will see, and we try to determine, is there a diagnostic testing done by the university but those tried in terms any of learning disability. so there is a very holistic introduction to the university as a whole, including the academic sooud. usually the parents or parent or loved one is there with the prospective student athlete. >> my time is expired. i yield back. >> i thank the chairman and the
gentlemen for your testimony today. i think from what i heard, judge starr kind of, as he would being a former judge, really clarified the issue. and that is, are we going to use the nlra as a vehicle for the improvements that you have all talked about today? i suspect, no. i can't imagine the authors of the law or the intent of congress was to cover this situation. but let's poke around with it and explore a little bit. mr. livingston if the students were to strike or if the athletics department or university were to lock the players out, like you'd have at a steel mill, let's say, during the collective bargaining process. would the students be able to attend class? >> the only experience we really have is in professional sports, where the entire league, that typically goes an strike oir is locked out. >> that's professional sports.
>> in college because we don't have it -- >> because in college you have classes and teachers and whatnot. >> would they have to stay in their dorms or vacate those? those are unanswered questions. >> right. certainly unanswered by the law or regulations or anything else. mr. muir, northwestern is in the big ten conference, as you know, along with two schools in indiana, one being pursdue in m district. let's say northwestern student athletes were to unionize and proceed to strike or be locked out. how would that affect the rest of the conference? using your knowledge and experience. >> not being at northwestern, i don't know if it's appropriate for me to jump on that, but -- >> i said using your experience and knowledge, what do you think would happen? >> it would be difficult to continue to schedule and continue to have competition. >> if stanford were in a similar situation, what would be the
effects? >> if that was the case, we're going down the path, stanford might not opt to continue to compete at the level we're coordinately competing at. >> to the dr. roe's point or comment he made earlier. my district also has st. joseph's college, which i'm a proud to be a board member of. it's a division 2 school, which if i understand right, you can share scholarships at that level, between students, and there's limited funds. again, experience looking into your crystal ball, what would be the effect of division 2 students with regard to this? >> again, i'm not a legal expert but if the students at division 2 wanted to unionize as well, i think that would dramatically affect whether institutions can continue to have these offerings which is part of the fabric of higher education. >> these questions and your answers continue to bring
clarity that i don't think this law was even intended for this kind of situation. >> may i add something? we're talking about scholarships as though there's a finite limit. rnd the national labor relation, the union would be able to bargain about it. half scholarships versus full scholarships it's all subject to bargaining rnd the nlra. >> thank you. judge starr coming to you, we often talk about on this committee and in business across the nation and in union halls about the cost of unionization. the cost of bargaining, cost of dues, et cetera, whether or not a union member should have to pay dues voluntarily or not have a choice in that. what do you think in your experience would be the cost of unionization for the employer and employees. can you estimate employer/employee costs of student athletes unionized at baylor, for example? >> we've not punched through the
numbers to come up with a reasonable estimate. the whole idea of collective bargaining is, in fact, to increase the whole reservoir of duly agreed upon commitments by the employer. so i think part of the question is, what can we do outside the collective bargaining which has never been contemplated before that improves student welfare. that's the ultimate question that you've rightly focused an. the yenization process is raising a whole host of questions we can't answer today but we know costs will go up, including issues with respect to how is that student going to be treated as an employee in terms of taxation? medicare and the like. >> that's a segue into my last ye f question for you, judge starr. considering the world is a jury. watching today, people may get the impression that the acknowledgment that improvements need to be made san
acknowledgment that someone was caught or this just started as a reaction to this recent decision. can you give us evidence otherwise via your testimony. >> i'm sorry, judge. the gentleman's time has expired. >> may he respond? >> the gentleman's time has expired. mr. scott. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. schwarz in many cases, the scholarship requires you to play. in most cases? >> my understanding is until 2011, the ncaa mandated that the scholarship could only be for one year whether schools wanted to give one or not if you stop playing during the course of that year, you were allowed to continue for that year, after which the scholarship would not be renewed. the current deal -- >> some colleges you get a scholarship and you can continue with the scholarship whether you play or not, isn't that right? a needs based scholarship. >> if you choose not to play
football the schools have the decision to terminate the aid even on a four-year deal at the end of that year. >> you indicate the number of hours that had to be committed. san athlete required to comply with that schedule? >> you know, in the nlrl hearing the facts that came out that weren't controverted. it's a 40, 50, 60-hour a week job during the season and about half that off season. >> can a student ever be before the ruling, could a student ever be an employee of the college, like if they worked at the library or something like that? >> students are employees at universities all the time. the editor in chief makes about $45,000 at the stanford daily. >> in that case is the student's -- is the status of a student, does that affect his status as an employee? >> no, students, employees are mutually exclusive concepts.
>> and the part-time job could be an eential part of the financial aid package. you get a certain amount of scholarship, a certain loan and we'll make sure you get a part-time job at the library. that could be an essential -- >> my roommate in college did just that. >> and it's unlikely if you quit your job at the library you'd lose the rest of your scholarship. that would be a little unheard of, wouldn't it? >> i think that's right. there's lots of ways that students outside of sports can be compensated. at stanford there was a class that required students to sell an app on facebook and to commercialize it was part of the requirements of the class and they got credit for doing that rather than being -- losing. >> is it possible that some student athletes would qualify as employees under this ruling and others not qualify? >> my understanding is the ruling applies only to fbs football athletes who receive a scholarship. >> now, what would the
difference be for those -- if you have a scholarship and just put a couple hours a week in swimming or wrestling or some other sport that doesn't have the time commitment is it possible you'd be a student athlete and not an employee? >> well, i object to the term student athlete. it's a term of our design to basically dodge legal agreements. you say college athlete, i think college athlights go to college and they play sports. >> and it's possible that some would qualify as employees and some would not. >> i think that's right. >> and if a college wanted to avoid the union problem, they could treat them like college students and not like employees. is that right? >> i am not sure if i am fully understanding, but -- >> if you get a scholarship for the chess club or something, or band and are not required to put in those kind of hours you'd be, what did you -- a college
athlete. >> that's right. the reverse is true. the chess team has more rights because the chess team could say, i want a college scholarship that covers more than just the athletic scholarship. they have the right in the market to bargain but football athletes don't. >> it's possible under this rule something would qualify as employees and others would not? >> i think that's correct. >> mr. eilers, you indicated the issues of the right to scholarship, medical treatment, the right to minimize brain trauma and other situations like that. a union could engage these issues. if it's not the union, who would be in a position in a bargaining position to engage these issues and have the resources actually to do the research and make a presentation on behalf of the athletes? >> mr. scott, as i said in my
testimony, i don't have a solution. to me it should be the ncaa and member institutions. and it's clear and just to clarify what i think are some misconceptions, schools operate differently. at notre dame, there is a specific instance of a scholarship athlete, played football, decided after his sophomore year not to play football anymore. we honored his scholarship, he graduated with a degree in four years from the university of notre dame. there may be other schools that operate differently. and our walk-ons were treated just like the scholarship athletes. maybe at the university of -- at ohio state, they weren't. so there needs to be an elevation across all, i think, collegiate sports to make sure that we are delivering for the student. >> gentleman's time has expired. mrs. brooks. >> thank you and thank you all for your testimony today. it's so very important. i'm the daughter of a high
school football coach and the mother of a d1 from xavier university who suffered a serious concussion in high school in the last game of her high school career, and after wonderful medical treatment and proper healing, she went on to play four years of d1 soccer. now many parents and people who are helping these athletes get scholarships, which they all work so very hard in their lives to achieve those scholarships, parents advocate for these young people. the students advocate. the student athlete advisory committee of the ncaa advocates. the, i would assume, the president of the universities and the representatives of each of the conferences that represent the ncaa on their board are advocates for these athletes. and i would submit that there are many avenues to rectify the
problems, and there are continued problems for college athletes. but these athletes make these choices as to which schools to attend. one thing we haven't talked about enough is the role of the coaches in all of this process. and the coaches who are employees of the university, who report to the athletic directors, who report to the college president who report to the board of trustees, what mechanisms are there in your universities for the students to voice their concerns with the coaches and the coaches to voice their concerns to the administration? i'll start with you, judge starr. >> yes, we do have at baylor and it's frequently the case at most institutions there's a student athletic council. so these are student athletes themselves who come together. they are elected by their fellow student athletes. and so they have direct access, not simply to their coaches but to the athletic director. they can also communicate with someone we haven't talked about and that's the faculty athletic
representative who is to bring an academic perspective to bear in terms of the entire athletic program, including reviewing specific cases. you are absolutely right. there are numerous avenues for voices to be heard. the ncaa, the final thing i'd say is the ncaa itself, however, believes that in its governance historically, it has not done well in terms of assuring the student athlete voice. so there are reforms under way that i think will be adopted that will in fact, better ensure that student athletes are there in the inner councils of the ncaa. >> thank you, mr. muir. >> we have a number of opportunities to hear from our student athletes. the student athlete council, the cardinal council, i just met with at my home two weeks ago. it's a chance to chec's a chanc hear their issues and concerns and how are we doing. it's really important. we survey all of our student athletes after every season and provide feedback.
they can do it anonymously. and we get information on just how their experience is going. also, the coaches have an open door policy. we look for that when we select our coaches and the proper leadership. we think we have one of the largest leadership development programs on our campus. that's another opportunity for student athletes to engage. we have administrators, counselors, tutors on the united front to make sure their experience is the best it possibly can be and an avenue for our student athletes to engage. >> is it fair to say that your coaches in part are judged in and their success is judged in part on though graduation rates of their athletes? >> we look at a number of things. the graduation rates and what they are doing in the classroom and to make sure they are solid citizens and a part of the university fabric, which is what we've talked about earlier. >> there's always a tension when student athletes have to leave and may miss classes or tests or labs and so forth. but as judge starr indicated, there are faculty
representatives and there has to be that relationship with the faculty and the athletic department in order to ensure those students take the tests, that they get the proper reinforcement and, in addition, the study halls. i know my daughter, there were numerous study tables that required of all student athletes in order, t to achieve certain gpas. they must achieve a certain gpa to get out of those study halls. are you familiar with that at notre dame? >> it wasn't proactive like it was when i was there. if you didn't perform well you got there. today they default to everybody starts with study hall. and the eonly other thing i'd comment. there are institutions that take academics and athletics seriously and their coaches do have -- do have provisions in their contract if they don't graduate their student athletes, there are negative implications
to their salary and to their career. >> thank you. my time is expired. >> mr. tierny. >> thank the witnesses today. i'm impressed with the concern and the way you sort of agree with the concerns or goals of it but you have a concern about unionization. i want to point out, these concerns existed for decades. so i wish that you had an idea you could -- what you would do if you wouldn't unionize. these are not new problems, are they? >> not at all. the issue of cost of attendance attendance sti attendance stiepeneds has been around since 1973 win by collective vote the ncaa took them away. >> i agree there are a lot of advocates out there. it hasn't been very effective for you. advocating all the time and the problem exists. >> it's a one-sided discussion.
>> so it was also the student, the college athlete has choices. what would you say to that? >> you know, i have been advocating for a much more free market opportunity. i think choice would be great. congressman brooks mentioned that choices have choice. what they don't have a choice about is the full package they receive because the schools fix the price what they offer. they offer the same thing. it limits choice. the ncaa, you know, $3.2 billion. but they can't address five basic issues except to say that it's coming soon. >> yeah. if i just -- can i add one thing. the idea it's a money-losing industry, you know, is incredible. if you look at money-losing industry. you wouldn't see rising pay for employees. you wouldn't see firms flocking to enter the industry. 19 new schools entered since '96. none have left. you wouldn't see bonuses for 10-1 for sports results instead of academic results. the money is in the system.
it's just that it's being denied to the primary generators. >> you made another point i want to talk about it a little bit. you said money is being funneled football coaches instead of the athlete. some coaches get paid $7 million. when the money is going to coaches in lieu of financial aid to the athletes. it effectively puts a cap on that and deprives female athletes. >> that's right. title ix doesn't apply to coaching pay. that's why males can make so much more than female coaches. it applies to financial aid to students. if the aid is capped, it is now. even the ncaa wishes it were higher. the lifting of the cap on the male athletes would effectively result in matching female funds. a cap on men results in a cap on women. >> if you allow me, undercover principles of title ix the amount of financial aid must be
in the same proportion as the sports participation rate of male and females. >> yes. >> but when i look at the data from department of education website it shows that baylor spends 56 cents on male citizenships but only 44 cents -- scholarships out of every dollar. but it is suggested under title ix they should give 42 cents to men and 58 cents to women. there is a disparage of just 1 percentage point. you have some serious explaining to do. i want to give you the opportunity to explain us to the disparity between the scholarship dollars this go to men versus women at baylor and participation rates of men and women. well that is a very fluid process. we have to come forward with explanations as to why there may be a temporary disparity.
we recently created two new women's sports with scholarships in toward address the disparity. we have, for example, created equestrian with a number of scholarships for women. we created acrobatics and tumbling. >> so you are saying this is a temporary issue, not year to year. do you know that for a fact or are you just guessing? >> i don't know of that specific disparity. that is information to me. what i do know is that athletic department, the athletic department does have to focus on this with our title ix compliance officer. we have a title ix compliance officer who reviews these kinds of issues to determine whether there -- >> i'm just disturbed that the ncaa's answer to all of these issues, can which most people agree aught to be addressed, is wait until the next decade or two and we might get around to. and title ix's answer is, we
will work on it. >> i agree. i have the same frustration. that's why i'm here today. i would like to see this implemented and the one thing i didn't want to throw on the table when i was a student athlete at notre dame, trying to prepare to play against michigan, prepare for class, i didn't see this coming up about threatening to strike. or getting friday night or saturday morning football game and not leave the locker room because demands weren't being met. i don't think the student athlete needs the incremental burden. but we need to get there. >> apparently they need something to get the conversation here with some sincerity. >> the gentleman's time has expired. mr. wahlberg? >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank to the panel for being here. i didn't participate in a revenue sport. i was in an olympic sport.
but wrestling in high school and college was the best training that i had. i did it out of the joy of the sport. i did it by choice. suffered four shoulder surgeries as a result of that in later years of my life. but i look back and i would do it all over again. i spreeappreciate also the aspe that there has to be care taken for our athletes and i respect what you said about your concerns on that. mr. muir, in your testimony, you state stanford has taken stepts to cover medical cost for injuries, promote player safety and research prevention and effectets of concussions. can you elaborate more on those steps? and are they consistent with ncaa rules? >> they are. we are doing concussion study on football student athletes, soccer student athletes. what they have told me is the
research will be lengthy. we can't today say here is how we prevent that from happening but certainly they are observing that and they have medical mouth piece they put in each of the student athletes to track where blows come from. and they are leading that research in that rooegard. and the welfare of our student athletes is something we hold near and dear us to. it is important to enhance those as we move forward with our student athletes competing at this level. >> are they made aware of opportunities considerations, programs -- >> they are testing -- they are the ones wearing those mouth pieces. they are getting educated on the risks involved and certainly what the research we are try doing. and there is obviously great discussion about what the future hold. so that's something he this engage in. i think has been worthwhile to
have this led leadership role. >> long those lines you say there are steps taken for student athletes, what are those steps? >> athletes that weren't able to finish their senior year in competition, we are honoring those scholarships. we look forward to them contributing once they are healthy. we have other athletes hurt while in the course of play and we still honor the scholarships at the end of the day. first and foremost we are here to make sure they get their degree and we will do everything in our power to make shower that happens regardless if they continue to play or not. >> what about baylor? >> same policy. we care for our student athletes and football players. if they are injured, the scholarship continues. and we have the moral obligation. an injury sustained in football
even post graduation. >> notre dame, as far as you know? [ inaudible ] . >> as far as i know, notre dame is consistent with other testimony. >> mr. muir, i would like you to talk about it as well. we have talked a little bit about the stippen issue? what is your issue as an athletic director? major private university? >> the major issue is that each institution is trying to pay up to the of attendance. that's the issue out there. for each institution, that attendance or personal cost is different. trying to figure out their exact number where we can at least try to be equitable. the other thing that mr. schwartz mentioned as well, is the resources that would be necessary to provide that.
not all schools are able to meet that cost of attendance, and it's a concern for them. or they'll have to make other decisions, and so that is a difficult one, and that's why we spent so many years trying to figure that out. i do feel, because of the discussion in the dialogue, that we're closer. we realize we need to enhance that overall experience for the student athletes, but it is different from school to school since there are so few that are truly making revenue that they're able to far exceed their expenses with revenue. it makes it hard, it makes it difficult. so i do think we're making progress but it's going to take a little more time. >> mr. eilers? >> anecdotally, i would just tell you, my parents, i was fortunate, were able to give me out of pocket expense money when i was on scholarship at notre dame. my little brother was there, two years younger than me, chris zorich, became a college all american and played with my last year at the chicago bears. he came from a single-parent
family, went to a chicago voc tech high school, had no pocket money. his mom couldn't afford it. it came down to people, his teammates, his mentors to make sure he could go out to dinner with us, do laundry, et cetera, off campus if need be, and i just think that's wrong. i had my first wrestling win at chicago votech. >> your time is expired. mr. burn? >> i am the chancellor for post-secondary education at the state of alabama. mr. eilers, don't hold that against me. i'm also a former labor lawyer who represented numerous clients in front of the national labor relations board on a number of occasions. so this issue fascinates me because i've dealt with it both ways. our two-year colleges, which is what post-secondary department of education at university of alabama deals with, does have athletic programs.
we add golfer in my district named bubba watson. bubba went on to georgia but he started at our two-year college. we're proud of bubba, and we're proud of our athletes. a vast majority will never do as well as bubba has, but a lot of them we hope will get a good education. you know when we're dealing with students in that environment, they bring their life issues with them. they may be students and they may be athletes, but they're also young people and they have life issues, and we have coaches and counselors that deal with them on stuff that happens on the field and stuff that happens off the field. you can't take them apart. they just come together like that. and i guess what bothers me about this whole issue -- and i want to share the concerns i've heard about the ncaa, by the way. i see that as a separate issue. i believe we're using the wrong tool to get at those ncaa issues.
what concerns me is that if students organize and we have to deal with a union representative instead of the student, what does that do to the obligation, the responsibility, i know y'all feel it from your institutions, to deal with these student athletes with their life issues and the stuff that's not directly involved with whatever they're doing on the field? what does that do to that? >> i think it would be very disruptive, you're absolutely right, congressman, that the relationship is a very individual relationship. and it's not just the coach and the coaching staff. it's that entire battery of support services, it's that tutor, but it's also the faculty member. it's the representative to the student council. at baylor we have a very vibrant chaplaincy program, so there's the spiritual dimension as well.
so trying to channel everything into, at the age of 18 to 22, a set of labor law issues with wages and terms and conditions and so forth, seems to be very artificial and arbitrary and not serving the ultimate interests of the individual student athlete. >> mr. muir, do you have a vantage point on that? >> i do. i just think about the relationships that we build with young people, and it starts, obviously, prior to coming to college. we start early now. it's becoming sophomore year, junior year of high school, obviously when they get to be seniors. that carries through not only the four years or five years they're on campus, but we want them to have a relationship with us once they graduate and have a degree. that relationship is so important to us, and yes, we do have students who have other issues that need to be dealt with and how do they cope and manage, but they feel open, and for the majority of them, that they're able to come to someone here in the university setting, whether it be a faculty member, a coach, an administrator, and that's the beauty of the college
environment, and i think that's really important for us to keep in mind as we move forward. certainly, as we noted, there are many issues that need to be addressed, and i think we're going to work our way to getting those done. it's always evolving. >> i would ask this question to legal counsel here. have you heard the vantage point of people who are dealing with these student athletes on things that go far beyond what happens in their actual athletic work, if you want to call it work, in this environment, is the nlra the right tool to deal with the issues that people seem to have with the ncaa, et cetera? let me just say this. ncaa doesn't have anything to do with two-year colleges. we start creating a bigger definition of employee, it's going to affect a whole lot of people, not just people who are governed by the ncaa. so is the nlra the right tool to
do this? >> mr. byrne, that's a great question and one of the reasons why i don't think it applies. under the nra, all employees have certain rights, and the policies that judge starr and others have talked about, based on recent nlrb decisions, they would clearly violate them. the coach requires his players to be a facebook friend. the schools monitor facebook postings, they prohibit interviews. recent board cases made it clear they say that violates the right of any employee whether they're in a union or not. so at all 17 schools, the framework we're talking about likely already violates the nlra. it's just not the appropriate tool. >> the gentleman's time has expired. on my agenda here, it says we're to do closing remarks. i'm going to yield to mr. miller for his closing remarks. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i think this is a very important hearing. you know, america is in the
throes of celebrating on a daily basis socially and economically every way possible entrepreneurs and those who take risks. the list of grievances that these players presented is a list of grievances that players could have presented five years ago and ten years ago across the college community, but they haven't been addressed. these players are put in a position of being on the edge all the time, scholarship, no scholarship, play, don't play, classes, no classes all of the time. that's a very interesting place to keep your employees that you care so much about. i think these players might play better if they had some more certainty in their life. but the ncaa doesn't let you do that as a university. we have some remarkable examples of university programs. you know you're not typical
across the board of high stakes football in this country. and we know the athletes are not typical. and the fact is, you're graduating people, but we also have clusters of athletes that go to certain classrooms for certain reasons that may not apply toward their graduation, so they're short but they stay eligible by taking the classes. i'm not holding you responsible, but we know this landscape. that's why the night commission was set up to look at the landscape. no easy critics out of the industry. but the fact of the matter is that this landscape has changed dramatically. i've been in congress long enough to know that when i've seen really tough issues on the academic side where they thought congress might get involved in accreditation or what have you, very often you don't meet the college president, you meet the college coach. and we know that the education journal, sports journal shows
are constantly debating this question who is the most powerful person on campus, the president or the coach? we all hell can be paid for the mishandling or hiring or firing of a coach. these concerns that these young men were willing to take a risk on exist on every campus. whether or not you have the security of a scholarship, for how long. whether or not you're going to have health insurance. what's going to happen with injuries if you lose your scholarship? we've been over this and over this and over this. i think i held the first concussion hearings. no, this is not proper for public discussion. this is a sport, this is volunteers, people play until they started to see the extent of the damage done.
i work with many nfl coaches and many nfl players. we couldn't get to first base. i had coaches come and tell me the documents are here. we know what's taken place here. well, finally the players association went to court and we know the rest is history. and that's just the beginning. but the fact of the matter is a determination was made that it was better to run the organization in the manner in which the owners wanted to run it than to deal with these issues. and i grant you, it can change the game. it's already changed the viewership. it's changed the way tv portrays it. they don't rerun those big hits because the audience has a bigger reaction today when they see that hit. they know that's a damaging hit. they know there are consequences to that. before that was highlights. but highlights are now a liability. so we can have all the parade here of what can happen if there's unionization. why don't we think what can happen if we took care of the problems of these student
athletes and if the university got back in control of this program and not the nc2a, not the conference? i understand there's got to be rules and regulations. but we see arbitrary decisions made all the time by the ncaa. i remember talking to sports journalists about the issue. why are students who had nothing to do with the infraction losing rights to the playoff game? if you think you're going to the nba or the nfl and you can't get into the playoffs where everybody is focused on your performance, that's a huge punishment. to what, they're up holding some morality of their vision of football and they're going to show they're really tough on this school? they were tough on a bunch of students who weren't there when the infraction took place. so i think there is a lot to think about on the campuses. we spend a lot of time on this committee about higher ed and the approaches we take. and i think that you, you're here because you're leaders in
this field, you're not immune from this. this is a stanford daily that i asked to be put in. the list of easy classes that nobody knew existed, everybody said didn't happen, but the professor said, it upped my attendance, i'm glad it was on there. and they said, no, they major in eligibility. i guess the senate is going to hear from miss william on north carolina? there you are. i think senators are going to hear this, so you can rail against the unionization. like the nfl, like the nba, you better address the problem. this is college sports, not ncaa, it's college sports. and i appreciate -- i stood on the sidelines. i was so proud there. happened to be with a big donor of usc and notre dame in los angeles and south bend.
most exciting moment of my life. i never knew it could be that noisy. i played a lot of football but i didn't play at that level. so we know the influences here. we know the influences here. they're student athletes. i don't think you treat the other students like this on campus. i think somebody better get and take control of this situation again. and in most of the journals i read, the president is losing in this war against the coaches for the say in the standards on campus. mrs. schwartz is right. this is like that cab in california. it's always coming but it never arrives. the ncaa just can't make these decisions so we get these arbitrary actions against institutions and against the students, and in some cases, against a coach now and then. there is a lot to think about
here. i've been here 40 years. i've watched a lot of people deny the problems and go after the symptom, which in this case is a decision to join the union. a rational decision by these young people. there was no other outlet for them. no other outlet as there wasn't for the people who preceded them. so i wouldn't be so concerned about whether or not they're going to -- they're not going to go out on the field on saturday. that's not the makeup of these young men. i remember talking to bobby knight when the networks decided they needed a mid-week game. now it depends on what conference you're in, how many days of school you missed. you can keep defending it. i would work on changing it. thank you very much, mr. chairman, for this hearing. >> i thank the gentleman. i'm going to thank the witnesses. a lot of expertise, real knowledge, appreciate everything you had to offer. quite a diversity and experiences and positions here. somebody who was a top-level college athlete and then went on
to play in the nfl has very strong feelings and opinions about these issues and has pointed out very eloquently, mr. eilers, that we've got problems out there as mr. miller, again very passionately, pointed out that needed to be addressed. what brought this hearing together was the actions of a regional director of the national labor relations board who suggested that these athletes are employees and, therefore, could, if they chose, vote to join a union. and so we explored some of the possible downsides of that issue, and we heard from witnesses here that talked about how would this deal with class attendance and practice times, attending games, how many games, what about walk-on players, what about universities who are public and don't fall under the national labor relations act and a host, frankly, of potential problems.
and we wanted to get that out, and i very much appreciate the testimony of the witnesses today as we start to explore that. i don't think there is a person on this committee that doesn't agree that we need to address some of those very issues that we talked about, and again, that mr. eilers talked about so eloquently. the question is, is unionization of some sports, some players and some schools the appropriate tool to get to that end? i've been very clear to say that i don't think that it is, and we need to then focus on, i think, all of us perhaps in congress and certainly those of you in the field, as it were, as athletic directors and college presidents and those concerned to do the sorts of things that mr. miller was talking about, that we address these issues. i just don't believe that
here is a look at weps wednesday night's prime time lineup. deb roo rutter, with a lock at kennedy center. citizen conference, civic and education leaders discuss what it means to be a citizen. on c-span at 8:00, more congressional retirement interviews. our focus is michigan democratic senator carl levin and texas republican congressman ralph hall. they are part of our week-long series. this thanksgiving week c-span has interviews from retired members of congress. watch thursday from 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> as much as we've accomplished in 36 years, and i don't want to look back at that as much as to look forward to the next couple
months and in the next couple months there's a couple things i would like do. one is to get my defense authorization bill passed. this is an annual ef important major effort, involving large amounts of staff. i also want it finish up work on a permanent subcommittee on investigations. looking at some gimmicks which are used to avoid taxes. >> i've been a member of congress for 34 years. and to finally get beat, if i was a manager for a baseball or football team, and i had a 34-1, i would be in the hall of fame. so it doesn't bother me. and really it didn't bother me to get beat because i wasn't just set on-going, i had 18 co-chairman, chairman of 18 counties in my district that were supporting me and wanted know run. and i did. >> and also on thursday, thanksgiving day, we will take an american history tour of
various native american tribes. that's at 10:00 a.m. eastern following washington journal. then at 1:30, attend ground breaking ceremony of the new diplomacy septemberener washington with new secretaries of state. and clarence thomas, samuel alito and sonia sotomayor at 8:30. for our complete schedule, go to c-span.org. with live coverage of the u.s. house on c-span and senate on c-span 2, here on c-span 3 we compliment that coverage by showing you the most rel rant hearings public affairs events. on week ends, c-span is the home to american history tv, programs that tell our nation's story. including the civil war's 150th anniversary visiting battle fields and key events. american artifacts, touring museums and historic sites to discover what artifacts reveal about america's past.
history bookshelf with the best known american history writers. presidency looking at policies an legacies of our nation's commanders in chief. lectures in history what top college professor delving into america's past. and featuring arechival and government films from the 1970s. watch us in hd, like us on facebook, and follow us on twitter. next a discussion about minority students and higher education. hosted by the ucla civil rights project. college professors and education professionals present studies on issues affecting black and hispanic students. as well as access to student loans and overallfectiveness of college ratings. this is about 40 minutes. >> thanks very much, gary.
so the paper i'm going to talk about this morning called the color of student debt is kau coauthored with robert and jason. this paper, as i said, is about student debt. something i know many of us are very concerned about and certainly as school resumes this fall for undergraduates across the country, we ought to remember that at more than 1 in 2 of them as they enter a college classroom this fall have taken out a loan in order do so. that's a significant change in history of this country and it means something. about what college opportunity entails today. in particular, i think it's notable that borrowing today is no longer a choice. that if one wants to attend college today, and particularly if one wants to attend college coming from a middle moderate or low income family, it's almost absolutely a necessity now that one borrows. that's a major change over time.
so total borrowing has grown by more than 10% in the last year alone. we are hearing numbers about trillions and things like this. now i would be happy to talk about the nuances of that trillion dollar number and concerns i might have about the pieces this debate that have been overstated. but i think there is no way to overstate the nablfact that stu debt has become an important facet of the undergraduate experience today and that in fact many students actually need to borrow in order to attend college. so the purpose of this paper is to turn to thee data and considr what might be the implications of some of the current federal debates about restricting access to loans. whether it's through accountability, measures for institutions, whether it's about institutions, right, to limit bore rogue of their student or some of their borrowers in their effort to reduce default rates. some of their borrowers in their
effort to reduce default rates. we want to raise awareness of the consequences about such moves. it is important that rather than reacting by limiting borrowing if we want to deal with student debt that we instead make more proactive adjustments to broader system of financing higher education. in all the talk about interest rates, repayment period and parent plus loans, there's been something missing. a word that has not been said despite the very clear evidence of the strong relationship between race ethnicity and family resources for college. it is indisputable that student debt today has a color. most student loan borrowers in this country are nonhispanic white and middle class. most of them. but the fact is, that students of color, and black students in particular, are much more likely to require student loans in order to finance college.
in other words for these students, it is rarely even a close. the percent of black und undergraduates on student aid is growing. 52% of them have a loan. it is safe it say that majority of african-american student in college would not be there without access to student loans. next slide, please. >> now why is this? the data indicate that it is fairly straight forward and that we've been overlooking a really important fact of today's status q quo. and that is that white families today have over 20 times the wealth of black families. that while the black middle class accumulated some wealth over the course of the 20th century it was demolished in the great reception. today, nearly one-third of black families have zero or even negative wealth.
next slide. now it is actually incredibly easy to forget about wealth when we're talking about financial aid. since thanks to legislativive changes over the past po 30 years, the facet ignores family values and it ignores debt. income alone does not bring stability. and the gap has never been larger. so our analyses indicate that black/white differences in family wealth -- ask you click the side please -- the blackwhite differences in family wealth can explain over 30% of the black/white differential we observed in student borrowing. there is a lot of claims about overborrowing. these claims do not take into account the significant
disparities in wealth. famili glak families under /* /- black families understand that you need to havedcation to move up. but it is hard if when you don't have wealth. home ec wit, family inheritance, et cetera, for many black families there are no other options. my coauthors and i want to look at this data. there is a lot of information about historically black college and universities and a lot of discussion about for profits. so we thought it was very important to turn some attention to this. it is of course the case that black students are overrepresented in their ep rollment in these two types offens tugss and we might therefore expect that borrowing rates would be higher in part
because they do have student there who do need fwroer it. to /* borrow it. to /* borrow it there's less financial aid available for students and that's why they need to borrow more. what we find is that this factor, lack of resources at institution, is contributing to borrowing but only at for-profit institutions. it is not driving up borrowing at hbcus. please go to the next click. so the overrepresentation of african-american students at for-profit institution is actually contributing to another 30% of the observed race gap and debt. next slide. so in addition, we can see that while student loans are especially important to student
at hcbus, it is also north noting that for all of the talk about this, the overrep dep tags of plus loans, when you look at the pie clahart, you see that hu is just 4%. so if we're concerned about plus loans we need to look elsewhere for a solution. next slide. so we think that it is clearly important that in discussing the upcoming reauthorization of the higher education act we acknowledge the importance of student loanes to the african-american community and to families across the country. these are enormous, growing rapidly, and they're not going anywhere. which means we need policies that respond to the problem but acknowledging it and providing help. not cutting them off. there is a way it ensure that student do borrow less. meeting their demonstrated financial need. we have a federaled into the analysis and we ignore it when it clearly indicates a negative skekted family contribution.
we can change that law and we can ensure that student from families with no assets get the pell grapt if they need it in toward succeed in college. >> in other words, right now, we have families and student who should qualify for negative efc and larger pell. we ignore that information and instead require they borrow and penalize them for doing so. we should also increase the transparency. we need to reduce the risk of nonpayment. finally, we argue that repayment options for student loans should be extended to parent plus loans. >> thank you. we are preserving your time for questions. our next speaker is willie kirkland. he can tell you from the front
lines what this issue looks like to a very important hbcu. >> thank you. >> good morning. i'm here to talk about the experience of one institution with the impact of financial aid limits and how it affects the institutions throughout from individual student to institution's bottom line. and so, i'm talking about dylan university located in new orleans, louisiana. founded in 1869. and part of the history, mission has focused on training african-american and underprivileged individuals and to assume leadership roles throughout the world and country. dill et has been 1200 student. 98% are american. that number, 65% are from louisiana. we also get a large proportion of student from other states including california where we
get about 12% of our students. texas about 7%. and illinois about 6%. also, 90% of students received some tiech aid. this is important and critical. what it means is for the institution, financial aid is central and we will find at financial aid perm nates throughout the institution in terms of how to fix and impact against an institution. di dill et had a pretension prom problem. in 2005, dill et had a significant loss of property and damaged infrastructure from hurricane katrina. that event resulted in dill et losing about half of its enrollment, from 2,000 to 1,000.
embarking upon reenrolling students and increasing this and rolling it, by 200 the, about 4 years after katrina, we ran into a problem. serious problem. retention prob grprogram. because it was effecting the bottom line institution, its budget, revenue, were down. so what institution decided to do was to look at retention and what may be driving retention at the end of the institution. we just knew that tension was dropping. by 2012-13, the retention rate dropped to 58%. so we add serious problem with retention. research desire to undertake retention study to university.
and it may effect the university of retention and we put together a model specific to dill et and that model had nine independent variables that were used to predict retention. first retention. scores. instate versus out of state. resident versus commuter and financial aid consideration in terms of regional need. we found two important things stood out. two factors.
one was grade point average. these two things were driving retention at least in terms of the 2010 cause. >> the reliability in terms of two variables that we liked at, were they influenced in retention across and so we use a cross section analysis to look at three cohorts. and so if you are familiar with reliability, you know, what you
expect is the sim loilar votes matter how many times you mae measure. we showed all three cohorts showed similar results. the so having established that liability. one of the questions that came up, since we had this data is what about federal policy and its impact? one of the things that had been talked about is the stricter requirements of parent plus loans. so what we decided to do is if we had data to look for the impact of that, so for the 2012 cohort we were able to obtain data. and we performed the cross tabulation and we saw that the
we monitor the accountability significantly over the last five years. one of the things that we looked at and want to recommend is that there are factors beyond just an institution's capacity and capability that effect retention. student come into our institutiones with different varying needs and of course, those students don't persist at the same rate. and a lot of that is conditioned by financial aid or what we found ability. and so is it fair to have an institution and financial aid to institutions which have 25%, say. and so, when you set standards and one of the things that we look at is the retention and graduation rate, you know, our suggestion is that perhaps some
type of weighted system be incorporated. thae and that the student population may indeed have an even playing field. >> thank you very much dr. kirkland. our first commentate oral be stella flores from vanderbilt university. >>. >> in response to this paper, i will respond to the whole paper. this paper bring two key social and financial realities that deserve more policy and research attention. that of the racial gap and racial debt gap. while there are differences in income, this paper is direct about how access to wealth which is influenced by a very poor racial history is fundamentally a discussion about race as well.
there is that of the focus of the role of the effects of the great recession as new financial context. for example, it is no secret that low to middle income families may need to take out loans for college. i certainly could not have completed my various post second degree without the health. however, something different to engage in loan behavior in the recession era from personal as well as statewide context. the focus on the federal loan influence to their role in the the proposed college rating system. but aid situations are also part of the aid decision and deregulating tuition and institutional choices to disproportionately involve merit over need. how current regulations for loan engagement and response play out in the new financial context for all-americans but particularly racial minority americans. the office also provides updated
hbcus and nonhbcus. only 4% of plus loans are at this institutions. i offer the following recommendations. in terms of the racial wealth gap, it might be helpful to look at black students beyond hbcu. i encourage authors to look at condition of financial aid received especially loans at institutions that are considered predominantly black ints tugss in addition to their work hbcu to more precisely unpack the racial wealth debt gap. authors have begun to do this. or expect the authors should be able to do this. they are well situated to do it and i look forward to seeing new results on that. my other recommendation is to include other groups in the racial wealth and racial debt
gaps as they move forward which i've talked to sarah about and i know this is part of the plan as well. but the ratio wealth and racial debt gap may be more pronounced if you include latino families. our analysis which i will present later actually show that in texas, it is latino student who kproes the most economically disadvantage student in four-year institutions. also adding hsi story is critical at these institutions. everyone understand that latino college enrollment. finally, literally and wealth. i encourage them to keep pushing for transparency and understanding the role of financial literacy and strategy associated with family wealth. thank you. >> thank you very much. all right. next commentator is brian bridges from united negro college fund. >> good morning. i want to thank gary, first of
all, and civil rights project for convening this much-needed event. and thank you to dr. kirkland for providing this contribution to today's proceedings. too often these conversations about research takes place without hbcu practitioners who conducted research at hbcu contribute together discussion. we know the importance of examining the broader hbcu context. uncf members are primary liberal arts institutions but i hope this paper demonstrates the need for funding to support applied research at these institutions which is necessary in promoting hbcu proposition. so gary is cracking the whip on time here. i only is have five minutes. i want to highlight a few positives. high few decisions. and briefly talk about implications. i want to start by identifying
the fact that the kirkland paper provides empirical evidence that reinforces efforts by hbc you community to promote continued access to much-needed financial aid dollars. the studied provides evidence. when it comes to retention and especially student gpa, the last one being one that we don't have enough information on. there is also voice to hbcu which is often referenced in some total, not the wide range of nuances that exist within the network. more hbcu research of this caliber is needed to have the work taking place on the ground and to inform the entire community to provide model to best practice. dr. kirkland's paper is filled with powerful findings that can inform campus practitioners who serve campus student.
the specifics tell us about dill eddie taubens et students. the owe reriginawe the unmet ne returning students increased almost three times the rate as that for nonreturners during the period.students increased almos times the rate as that for nonreturners during the period. a troubling pictures emerges that we know has been taking place for some time. hbcu student have increasingly encountered difficulty finding the funding that is necessary to make the collegiate dreams reality. while this increasing need is not highlighted, it is not to be glossedor. there are two variables, with the denial of plus loeps. loans.. loanloans loans. the variable is the most powerful predictor of early
success and that is first semester gpa. now a couple of ideas for few tour studies that i would like to see on first or second year attention. first semester gpa or are there other more direct impacts on retention in in other words, is there more to the effect after plus loan denial than a student retained and impact on gpa? while this paper does not explore how lingering unmet need for plus loan denial impact gpa or retention just that it does. psycho social implications on students could be very illuminating. one of the questions i also had left is whether the impact of unmet need o is consistent across all levels. did it have the same impact?
this paper adds to the body of knowledge about what helps or not at hbcu. resources continue to shrink at campus and federal level. this can be the californplatfor additional research that needs to be done. african-american families were particularly hard hit by the great recession add together difficulty of these familiar i theres to send their kids to college. exacerbating by recession, when a time when there is more merit-based aid than need-based aid. continuing to shrink over long-term and federal government making legislative and policy changes reducing access to aid and should be easily fl understood why hbcu fought so hard against parent plus changes recently.
the paper also helps us better understand how student are disproportionately affected by student aid policy. government policies can have a direct impact on disadvantaged populations and the institutions they attend. this paper confirms that and announces on plus loan impact on one hbcu shows the disproportionate impact on hbcus with thousands of students approved over the last couple of years is real. reports have the parent plus loan crisis and after the campaign the department of education responded by proposing new parent plus loan rules that will reopen the doors for college for thousands of students. research by practitioners, like dr. kirkland is necessary to remain vigilant for future cases like this. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> now we have the time that you can ask questions.
there's microphones here at the end of each aisle. so come forward quickly. while you're coming forward, i will pitch one at the authors. a lot of the problem with abuse of loans has taken place in the for-profit sector. are we firing a cannon and hitting a wrong target a as we try to restrict plus loans for other kind of institutions? sara? >> i think there's no question about whether the challenges lie. although i do think that story on the for profits is a bit more complicated than the one that's been told thus far. i think there probably are some that are engaged in behaviors that we should be concerned about and others that may not be. i think the fact of the matter is that we are trying to design our way it a policy solution
that is overly complicated because we are unwilling to make simple statements about where our funds are public dollars should go. and in the absence of having the guts do that, and drawing some lines in the sand about public use of public dollars, this is where we are. we are trying to back into a solution that's going to cause harm to some of our greatest institutions. >> are there other questions? everybody still sleepy? so i'd like to ask dr. kirkland, now, hbc is defending plus loans. but they're burdensome for family that don't have resources or negative resources. so is it doing something like sara was talking about, to change pell grant to give student bigger grants to start with? >> yes.
i would agree. that what we found is it is an ongoing problem. is that students, you know, they stress about thesish ice issues. and you're correct in terms of parents who apply for the parent loan sometimes are reluctant to want do it. simply because many of the parents have extremely low income. and for example, if your income is $20,000 a year, family income, and you go and you borrow 15 to $20,000 from plus loan, it creates a serious burden on the parent. many cases parents may not be able to repay that. so i think that if it were available, that would preclude parents from having to seek the loan to close gaps.
i think it could be important. >> so i think we've had an opening. yes, go ahead. come and ask your question. >> thank you. good morning. leslie baskerville, president and ceo, of the membership association of the 105 historically black colleges and universities. i would like to thank each one of you again for your time and for presenting this information to us. a special thanks to you, gary. given the trends that you talked about in wealth, and given that the growing populations are low income, first generation students, traditionally underresourced, underserved students. hispanics. asian pacific islanders and african-american students. and given that hbcus are proven, to keep the cost, according to the com edge board, for privates, $10,000 lower than historically white colleges for
public's $2500 for their per semester for their colleges. might we not come together around the idea of supporting and investing a cost of doing business? a cost of educating the growing population needs higher ed bill. such that colleges and universities get a bonus. that's the question. >> all right. what sort of implications for higher eds. >> no, not implications. i have a specific, would you support a cost off education bonus to colleges and universities like hbcus and hsis, that are doing the best job of the growing population, a cost of doing business bonus. >> okay. i think that i probably would. i think that -- look, i think
that we do need some clear acknowledgement of where colleges are doing an exceptional job of meeting need. i don't mean financial need. i mean the communities around them they are serving. i like your phrase, cost of doing business. frankly, i think most colleges and universities in this country are open access ins tiegs are not getting the financial support they need in order to do their business well. and that is very strongly related to their underperform ups and graduation rates. we cannot resource institutions with less than than you need to pro viet high quality remedial education. i would go one step further. what i'm thinking is your proposal is very, very modest. i believe that these institutions are providing such a great service to the nation that historically have that we ought to have a discussion about them becoming in some fashion of state supported. you know, institutions. and we've done that in the past when we needed to preserve institutions and preserve you know our ip vestments in those schools and i think we should
consider that.ip vestments in t schools and i think we should consider that.nip vestments in e schools and i think we should consider that. vestments in tho schools and i think we should consider that.vestments in thos schools and i think we should consider that. i would like to hear a discussion about that from the hbcus. >> dr. kirkland? >> yeah. one of the tennants that i like to present is that, what we do is we take student with many challenges and we graduate them. where other well financed institutions with higher admission standards who saw a cherry pick off the top and get top students, there is no variation in your population. and it is easy because you get students who are highly motivated, who have strong precollegiate background and i submit that dill et can graduate the 90, 95% of those students as well.
if we were more properly resourced then we would be able to overcome challenges that we faced with financial aid. but i would challenge those institutions who graduate 90% to take dill et student and graduate the same percent we graduate. >> thank you very much. we can take one more really quick question. two minutes. >> howard university assist upt professor recently at mexico state university will policy story line here you have the debate of merit versus need-based scholarship situations and have you at the state political level kind of almost a debate that's is winning in favor of the merit based conversations. scholarships. or changes in admissions type 2 loan default rates that conversation and sphere. the question here, is not as much of how we transform at the state political level, the assumptions around financial
aid. but more importantly, how does reauthorization of the higher education act kind of connect to that very real challenge at the state level that just an example were about, you can lose this battle. you have common core conversation where state by state there is literally a play by play. now have you a national conversation change in policy. how do we do that a the federal level to con negligent to that debate. >> thank you. would you like comment on that? >> i think i understand your question. certainly, it is important to acknowledge that policy making is occurring across our 50 states and that they are going to play a powerful role and how anything done at the federal level will play out. and it can undermine the level. i think there is a strong stance in terms of messages about what the purpose of for example the federal financial aid program
is. and the purpose aught to be to make cost effective investments. that transform people's lives. what we know from research on merit aid is that it doesn't accomplish that. it resources people who already have a leg up and it doesn't create much delta in their outcome. that's inefish ept. not a good investment, right? what we want to do is get people focused on where to use the scarce resources to change loifs. it is very kplaer, for example, if you are going to have limt its or federal loans then heck we would limit those access to those loans for the most upper middle class folks. but that's not what is being talked about here, is it? we are talking about institution where people don't have less access to loans. so it is important for the federal government and take the lead in getting the the states to get their heads around it. >> to for me it boils down to
politics and good politics. you are look og for ting for th who are going to lep you get reelocated. one of the things you want do is address that community that participates and what we call a louisiana law. and so, what state legislators do is they look and they see that well we can benefit the middle class. but that also allowed the middle class to support us in electoral contest. i this i to get it to the national level, i think that it has to become an issue that gains traction.